Discussion:
Peter T. Daniels manipulating the Windows taskbar with a mouse.
(too old to reply)
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-20 06:20:22 UTC
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I placed the cursor (is that what you so quaintly call the
"pointer"?) near the middle of the taskbar [...]
RTFM. It's a pointer.
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell you that
it's a cursor. You're discussing Microsoft Windows. Microsoft Windows
terminology is that the sprite associated with the mouse input device is
the "cursor", and the vertical bar in text entry fields associated with
keyboard input is the "caret". You can see this terminology reflected in
the names of Win32 API functions such as LoadCursor(), ShowCursor(), and
CreateCaret(); and explicitly laid out in the MSDN Library developers'
documentation for the Windows User Interface, which has sections for
cursors and sections for carets.

The system where the distinction is between "pointers" and "cursors" is
OS/2 — or, more strictly, Presentation Manager. In Presentation Manager,
the sprite associated with the mouse input device is the "pointer", as
reflected in the names of PM API functions such as WinLoadPointer() and
WinShowPointer(), and the rectangle in entryfields, MLEs, and other
windows associated with keyboard input is the "cursor", as reflected in
the names of PM API functions such as WinCreateCursor().
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-20 06:20:25 UTC
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I placed the cursor (is that what you so quaintly call the
"pointer"?) near the middle of the taskbar [...]
You have a Cursor in a text window. It indicates where what you are
going to type will go. The thing you move with the mouse is called the
pointer.
As just explained in another message (q.v.), this is incorrect for
Microsoft Windows.
Jared
2010-03-20 17:12:24 UTC
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On Mar 20, 2:20 am, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
I placed the cursor (is that what you so quaintly call the
"pointer"?) near the middle of the taskbar [...]
RTFM. It's a pointer.
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell you that
it's a cursor. You're discussing Microsoft Windows. Microsoft Windows
terminology is that the sprite associated with the mouse input device is
the "cursor", and the vertical bar in text entry fields associated with
keyboard input is the "caret".
Windows does so call it the pointer - e.g.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/accessibility/pointerscheme.mspx.
They may have inconsistent terminology in the API but that's of no
import.

The cursor is traditionally the text entry point, pre-GUI, so it's
better to leave the terminology alone and refer to the mouse
"pointer". This is, or was, the terminology on the Mac, I believe. I'm
sure that the original functions on Windows were defined by people who
didn't care about the niceties, but eventually someone noticed that
the Macintosh way was better, and I think you will find that most
anything for public consumption uses it.
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-20 17:26:35 UTC
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[Followup set because of server limits]
On Mar 20, 2:20 am, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
I placed the cursor (is that what you so quaintly call the
"pointer"?) near the middle of the taskbar [...]
RTFM. It's a pointer.
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell you
that it's a cursor. You're discussing Microsoft Windows. Microsoft
Windows terminology is that the sprite associated with the mouse
input device is the "cursor", and the vertical bar in text entry
fields associated with keyboard input is the "caret".
Windows does so call it the pointer - e.g.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/accessibility/pointerscheme.mspx.
They may have inconsistent terminology in the API but that's of no
import.
The cursor is traditionally the text entry point, pre-GUI, so it's
better to leave the terminology alone and refer to the mouse
"pointer". This is, or was, the terminology on the Mac, I believe. I'm
sure that the original functions on Windows were defined by people who
didn't care about the niceties, but eventually someone noticed that
the Macintosh way was better, and I think you will find that most
anything for public consumption uses it.
I'm fairly certain (as a native speaker) that it's called a "hover" in
Windows, because the first event it fires is the hovering event.

Generally though, it's acceptable to call it a "cursor" when the hover icon
used looks something like this: ][ . It's acceptable to call it a "pointer"
when the hover icon looks like an arrow.

This is all very common and accepted terminology in the Windows world.

HTH.

Etienne
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-21 02:33:42 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
I'm fairly certain (as a native speaker) that it's called a "hover" in
Windows, because the first event it fires is the hovering event.
This is all very common and accepted terminology in the Windows world.
No, it isn't. I quote the MSDN Library documentation for the
Post by Etienne Rouette
The WM_MOUSEHOVER message is posted to a window when the cursor hovers
over the client area [...]
The thing that's doing the hovering, and that is being discussed here in
this thread, is quite clearly called a "cursor" there. Not a "hover"; a
"cursor". You've mis-read the documentation.
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-21 03:36:23 UTC
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[Followups set because of server limitations]
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by Etienne Rouette
I'm fairly certain (as a native speaker) that it's called a "hover"
in Windows, because the first event it fires is the hovering event.
This is all very common and accepted terminology in the Windows world.
No, it isn't. I quote the MSDN Library documentation for the
Post by Etienne Rouette
The WM_MOUSEHOVER message is posted to a window when the cursor
hovers over the client area [...]
The thing that's doing the hovering, and that is being discussed here
in this thread, is quite clearly called a "cursor" there. Not a
"hover"; a "cursor". You've mis-read the documentation.
I did not mis-read the documentation. In fact, I didn't read the
documentation.

I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker). It's
called a "hover" because it hovers. Why would I need to read documentation
to figure this out?

Etienne
alan
2010-03-21 03:57:51 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
I did not mis-read the documentation. In fact, I didn't read the
documentation.
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker). It's
called a "hover" because it hovers. Why would I need to read documentation
to figure this out?
Etienne
It is NOT called a "hover". YOU call it a "hover". You need to read the
documentation to figure out that you're wrong . . .
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-21 04:16:44 UTC
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Post by alan
Post by Etienne Rouette
I did not mis-read the documentation. In fact, I didn't read the
documentation.
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker).
It's called a "hover" because it hovers. Why would I need to read
documentation to figure this out?
Etienne
It is NOT called a "hover". YOU call it a "hover". You need to read
the documentation to figure out that you're wrong . . .
Are you the authority on this? If you tell me you are, then maybe I won't
need to read the documentation after all.

In any case, as I said before, it's pretty much self-descriptive. I already
know what "hover" means.

One thing I'm not clear about: is it the MouseOver or the MouseHover event?
I'm not quite sure (as a native speaker) of whether it's supposed to be
called a "hover" or a "over" (with silent "h"*). I've seen conflicting
reports on this one.

Etienne

* Or maybe it's a giant H?
Bryce Utting
2010-03-21 04:37:29 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
One thing I'm not clear about: is it the MouseOver or the MouseHover event?
I'm not quite sure (as a native speaker) of whether it's supposed to be
called a "hover" or a "over" (with silent "h"*).
probably depends on your mouse. if yours has six balls, feel free to
call it an over.


butting
--
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~butting
If violence doesn't solve your problem, you clearly didn't use
enough of it.
-- Alexander Schreiber
Just like XML.
-- Matt Palmer
Joachim Pense
2010-03-21 07:16:32 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker). It's
called a "hover" because it hovers. Why would I need to read documentation
to figure this out?
Wouldn't something that hovers be rather called a "hoverer"?
Joachim

f'up2aue
--
My favourite # 8:

My favourite # 49:

Leslie Danks
2010-03-21 10:15:16 UTC
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Etienne Rouette wrote:

[...]
Post by Etienne Rouette
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker). It's
called a "hover" because it hovers.
In that case it should be called a "hoverer", shirley.
Post by Etienne Rouette
Why would I need to read documentation
to figure this out?
--
Les (BrE)
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-21 13:25:14 UTC
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Post by Leslie Danks
Post by Etienne Rouette
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker).
It's called a "hover" because it hovers.
In that case it should be called a "hoverer", shirley.
So using that logic (as a native speaker), if we were to use your "official"
terminology, the pointer would become the "pointerer" and the cursor would
be the "cursorer", correct? Thanks.

Etienne
David DeLaney
2010-03-21 13:41:41 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by Leslie Danks
Post by Etienne Rouette
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker).
It's called a "hover" because it hovers.
In that case it should be called a "hoverer", shirley.
So using that logic (as a native speaker), if we were to use your "official"
terminology, the pointer would become the "pointerer" and the cursor would
be the "cursorer", correct? Thanks.
Exactly, just as the source code repository is a "sourceror".

Dave "and the every-so-often-it-flees-to-one-corner-or-another behavior would
still be called $()&&*@#&" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-21 14:22:13 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by Leslie Danks
Post by Etienne Rouette
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native
speaker). It's called a "hover" because it hovers.
In that case it should be called a "hoverer", shirley.
So using that logic (as a native speaker), if we were to use your
"official" terminology, the pointer would become the "pointerer" and
the cursor would be the "cursorer", correct? Thanks.
Exactly, just as the source code repository is a "sourceror".
Dave "and the every-so-often-it-flees-to-one-corner-or-another
Yes, nothing more annoying than when the hover has a mind of its own.You're
about to click, it moves to the top right corner, the window closes, you
curse (are we supposed to call them "windows" in the Windows world? Maybe
"portholes"? "Casements"? Just checking, as a native speaker).

Etienne
Bryce Utting
2010-03-21 21:42:17 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Exactly, just as the source code repository is a "sourceror".
I've *used* Visual Source Safe, and the last thing I'd call it would
be "sourceror". "Lich", maybe. I'd then have to deal with real
liches getting upset with me for the association, but that'd still be
better than dealing with VSS.


butting
--
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~butting
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking
in singin' a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may
think it's an organization.
-- Arlo Guthrey
Leslie Danks
2010-03-21 13:57:27 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by Leslie Danks
Post by Etienne Rouette
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker).
It's called a "hover" because it hovers.
In that case it should be called a "hoverer", shirley.
So using that logic (as a native speaker), if we were to use your
"official" terminology, the pointer would become the "pointerer" and the
cursor would be the "cursorer", correct? Thanks.
Yer 'avin' me on, i'ntcher.

The verb is "point", the thing doing it is the "pointer".

The verb is "hover", the thing doing it is the "hoverer".

What does a cursor do? It hovers or points, depending on the season of the
year and its hormonal imbalance.
--
Les (BrE)
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-21 14:29:23 UTC
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Post by Leslie Danks
Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by Leslie Danks
Post by Etienne Rouette
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native
speaker). It's called a "hover" because it hovers.
In that case it should be called a "hoverer", shirley.
So using that logic (as a native speaker), if we were to use your
"official" terminology, the pointer would become the "pointerer" and
the cursor would be the "cursorer", correct? Thanks.
Yer 'avin' me on, i'ntcher.
The verb is "point", the thing doing it is the "pointer".
The verb is "hover", the thing doing it is the "hoverer".
Ok. Thanks for pointing it out. Obviously, having not read the documentation
yet, I hadn't noticed this subtlety. I shall use "hoverer" from now on.

Do you think "hover" is an accepted abbreviation for this? I'm asking
because I don't remember ever hearing anyone refer to it as "hoverer".
"Hover" seems to be the more popular (and easier to pronounce, tomato,
tomato).
Post by Leslie Danks
What does a cursor do? It hovers or points, depending on the season
of the year and its hormonal imbalance.
Doesn't it curse?

Etienne
s***@yahoo.com
2010-03-21 18:14:11 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
Do you think "hover" is an accepted abbreviation for this? I'm asking
because I don't remember ever hearing anyone refer to it as "hoverer".
"Hover" seems to be the more popular (and easier to pronounce, tomato,
tomato).
As a native AmE speaker who's worked in the computer industry for
decades, I'll say that until you did so in this thread I had never,
ever heard anyone call the it a "hover". I wouldn't readily
understand what someone meant if they used that term.
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-21 18:59:42 UTC
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Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by Etienne Rouette
Do you think "hover" is an accepted abbreviation for this? I'm asking
because I don't remember ever hearing anyone refer to it as
"hoverer". "Hover" seems to be the more popular (and easier to
pronounce, tomato, tomato).
As a native AmE speaker who's worked in the computer industry for
decades, I'll say that until you did so in this thread I had never,
ever heard anyone call the it a "hover". I wouldn't readily
understand what someone meant if they used that term.
Although I can't say I've worked in the computer industry for decades (one
decade only), I myself had never heard anyone before refer to the hover as
the "it". So I guess it all evens out in the end.

Etienne
s***@yahoo.com
2010-03-21 20:48:28 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by Etienne Rouette
Do you think "hover" is an accepted abbreviation for this? I'm asking
because I don't remember ever hearing anyone refer to it as
"hoverer". "Hover" seems to be the more popular (and easier to
pronounce, tomato, tomato).
As a native AmE speaker who's worked in the computer industry for
decades, I'll say that until you did so in this thread I had never,
ever heard anyone call the it a "hover".  I wouldn't readily
understand what someone meant if they used that term.
Although I can't say I've worked in the computer industry for decades (one
decade only), I myself had never heard anyone before refer to the hover as
the "it". So I guess it all evens out in the end.
Apologies. Delete "the", or change "it" to "pointer". I have often
heard it called a cursor, mouse cursor, or pointer; I've never heard
it called a "hover".
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-21 22:07:02 UTC
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Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by s***@yahoo.com
As a native AmE speaker who's worked in the computer industry for
decades, I'll say that until you did so in this thread I had never,
ever heard anyone call the it a "hover". I wouldn't readily
understand what someone meant if they used that term.
Although I can't say I've worked in the computer industry for
decades (one decade only), I myself had never heard anyone before
refer to the hover as the "it". So I guess it all evens out in the
end.
Apologies. Delete "the", or change "it" to "pointer".
Apologies accepted. Should I do this for all previous posts or just this
one? It's much more difficult to follow what everyone is saying when the
terminology changes retrospectively during the course of a thread, you know.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I have often
heard it called a cursor, mouse cursor, or pointer; I've never heard
it called a "hover".
What about the MouseHover event? It's not the MouseCursor or MousePointer
event!

Etienne
Peter Moylan
2010-03-21 23:19:21 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I have often
heard it called a cursor, mouse cursor, or pointer; I've never heard
it called a "hover".
What about the MouseHover event?
Sometimes also known as the MouseOver event. When did it acquire an "H"?
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
David DeLaney
2010-03-22 01:49:36 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I have often
heard it called a cursor, mouse cursor, or pointer; I've never heard
it called a "hover".
What about the MouseHover event?
Sometimes also known as the MouseOver event. When did it acquire an "H"?
I don't think it did. Rawther, I think the aitch got dropped somewhere.

Dave "it was probably too Giant to retain" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-22 01:20:32 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Etienne Rouette
What about the MouseHover event?
Sometimes also known as the MouseOver event. When did it acquire an "H"?
You're talking about a different event inasmuch as you are talking about
Win32 events at all. In Win32 there are the WM_MOUSEMOVE, and (if
TrackMouseEvent() has been called) the WM_MOUSELEAVE and the
WM_MOUSEHOVER event notification messages. There's no MouseOver event.
That's a JavaScriptism, not a Windows event. (Strictly, moreover: It's
onMouseOver in Visual BASIC and JScript.)

But you do know that Etienne Rouette is winding M. sjdevnull up, right?
The "as a native speaker" stuff should have given it away several
messages back.
David DeLaney
2010-03-22 04:53:27 UTC
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Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Etienne Rouette
What about the MouseHover event?
Sometimes also known as the MouseOver event. When did it acquire an "H"?
You're talking about a different event inasmuch as you are talking about
Win32 events at all. In Win32 there are the WM_MOUSEMOVE, and (if
TrackMouseEvent() has been called) the WM_MOUSELEAVE and the
MOUSESLAVE? ...Oh, wrong company, never mind.
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
WM_MOUSEHOVER event notification messages. There's no MouseOver event.
That's a JavaScriptism, not a Windows event. (Strictly, moreover: It's
onMouseOver in Visual BASIC and JScript.)
But you do know that Etienne Rouette is winding M. sjdevnull up, right?
The "as a native speaker" stuff should have given it away several
messages back.
Eventually he'll let him go, and see how far he wanders.

Dave "speaking of clockwork mice..." DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
s***@yahoo.com
2010-03-22 04:57:39 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by s***@yahoo.com
As a native AmE speaker who's worked in the computer industry for
decades, I'll say that until you did so in this thread I had never,
ever heard anyone call the it a "hover". I wouldn't readily
understand what someone meant if they used that term.
Although I can't say I've worked in the computer industry for
decades (one decade only), I myself had never heard anyone before
refer to the hover as the "it". So I guess it all evens out in the
end.
Apologies.  Delete "the", or change "it" to "pointer".
Apologies accepted. Should I do this for all previous posts or just this
one?
Sorry again. Do this only for my posts (current and future), but not
for anyone else's--that would become exceedingly confusion. Apologies
for the the lack of clarity. Also, please don't apply that rule to
word #4 in the previous sentence (words should be numbered as counted
before applying the rule anywhere in the post).

Also, please do this only for my original words, not for quoted
material.
Post by Etienne Rouette
It's much more difficult to follow what everyone is saying when the
terminology changes retrospectively during the course of a thread, you know.
Sadly, it can't be helped.
Post by Etienne Rouette
What about the MouseHover event? It's not the MouseCursor or MousePointer
event!
Of course not; that makes no sense! I did get a picture of it,
though:
Loading Image...
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-22 10:42:29 UTC
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Post by s***@yahoo.com
Sorry again. Do this only for my posts (current and future), but not
for anyone else's--that would become exceedingly confusion. Apologies
for the the lack of clarity. Also, please don't apply that rule to
word #4 in the previous sentence (words should be numbered as counted
before applying the rule anywhere in the post).
Also, please do this only for my original words, not for quoted
material.
The last two paragraphs almost sound like rules from M:TG.

[snips]
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Of course not; that makes no sense! I did get a picture of it,
http://photos.neoterichovercraft.com/galleries/history/history/photos/nltzc04.jpg
Ok, that's where you wound up! When Disney and Microsoft merge, this will
definitely be the MouseHover event.

Etienne
David DeLaney
2010-03-22 16:12:00 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Sorry again. Do this only for my posts (current and future), but not
for anyone else's--that would become exceedingly confusion. Apologies
for the the lack of clarity. Also, please don't apply that rule to
word #4 in the previous sentence (words should be numbered as counted
before applying the rule anywhere in the post).
Also, please do this only for my original words, not for quoted
material.
The last two paragraphs almost sound like rules from M:TG.
O no. I made sure to proofread those rules better than that.

Maybe the old old interrupt timing rules, though.
Post by Etienne Rouette
Ok, that's where you wound up! When Disney and Microsoft merge, this will
definitely be the MouseHover event.
I've seen pictures of HoverCat events; is this related?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
tony cooper
2010-03-21 22:59:20 UTC
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Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by Etienne Rouette
Do you think "hover" is an accepted abbreviation for this? I'm asking
because I don't remember ever hearing anyone refer to it as
"hoverer". "Hover" seems to be the more popular (and easier to
pronounce, tomato, tomato).
As a native AmE speaker who's worked in the computer industry for
decades, I'll say that until you did so in this thread I had never,
ever heard anyone call the it a "hover".  I wouldn't readily
understand what someone meant if they used that term.
Although I can't say I've worked in the computer industry for decades (one
decade only), I myself had never heard anyone before refer to the hover as
the "it". So I guess it all evens out in the end.
Apologies. Delete "the", or change "it" to "pointer". I have often
heard it called a cursor, mouse cursor, or pointer; I've never heard
it called a "hover".
Mouse over this <
Loading Image... >
and you can then say "My hover is full of....".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Pat Durkin
2010-03-22 23:31:10 UTC
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On Mar 21, 10:29 am, "Etienne Rouette"
Post by Etienne Rouette
Do you think "hover" is an accepted abbreviation for this? I'm asking
because I don't remember ever hearing anyone refer to it as
"hoverer".
"Hover" seems to be the more popular (and easier to pronounce, tomato,
tomato).
As a native AmE speaker who's worked in the computer industry for
decades, I'll say that until you did so in this thread I had never,
ever heard anyone call the it a "hover". I wouldn't readily
understand what someone meant if they used that term.
Does a boat "hove" into view, or does it "hive"? How about a
helicopter. I know it hovers, but does it "hove"? OK. I see it is
past tense and past participle of "heave".

Further non sequitur: I find a lot of dictionaries containing
"hover", but not one is a reputed British one--while "hove" appears in
COED, almost the first dictionary listed. (Searching in One Look
Dictionary) Do the Brits not recognize this valuable word (hover)?
Robert Bannister
2010-03-23 00:38:41 UTC
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Post by Pat Durkin
On Mar 21, 10:29 am, "Etienne Rouette"
Post by Etienne Rouette
Do you think "hover" is an accepted abbreviation for this? I'm asking
because I don't remember ever hearing anyone refer to it as
"hoverer".
"Hover" seems to be the more popular (and easier to pronounce, tomato,
tomato).
As a native AmE speaker who's worked in the computer industry for
decades, I'll say that until you did so in this thread I had never,
ever heard anyone call the it a "hover". I wouldn't readily
understand what someone meant if they used that term.
Does a boat "hove" into view, or does it "hive"? How about a
helicopter. I know it hovers, but does it "hove"? OK. I see it is
past tense and past participle of "heave".
Further non sequitur: I find a lot of dictionaries containing
"hover", but not one is a reputed British one--while "hove" appears in
COED, almost the first dictionary listed. (Searching in One Look
Dictionary) Do the Brits not recognize this valuable word (hover)?
It's what women do in public toilets.
--
Rob Bannister
Mike Barnes
2010-03-23 07:27:10 UTC
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Post by Pat Durkin
I find a lot of dictionaries containing
"hover", but not one is a reputed British one--while "hove" appears in
COED, almost the first dictionary listed. (Searching in One Look
Dictionary) Do the Brits not recognize this valuable word (hover)?
Yes we do, but it's cunningly hidden from foreign eyes. Here, I'll get
it for you.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/hover?view=uk

*verb 1* remain in one place in the air. 2 linger close at hand in an
uncertain manner. 3 remain at or near a particular level or in an
intermediate state.

*noun* an act of hovering.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-21 17:15:41 UTC
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Post by Etienne Rouette
Post by Etienne Rouette
I'm fairly certain (as a native speaker) that it's called a "hover"
in Windows, because the first event it fires is the hovering event.
This is all very common and accepted terminology in the Windows world.
No, it isn't. I quote the MSDN Library documentation for the
Post by Etienne Rouette
The WM_MOUSEHOVER message is posted to a window when the cursor
hovers over the client area [...]
The thing that's doing the hovering, and that is being discussed here
in this thread, is quite clearly called a "cursor" there. Not a
"hover"; a "cursor". You've mis-read the documentation.
I did not mis-read the documentation. In fact, I didn't read the
documentation.
I think it's self-documenting enough as it is (as a native speaker).
It's called a "hover" because it hovers. Why would I need to read
documentation to figure this out?
You're nowhere near as good at this as a true verbal tap-dancing master
would be. You still have some learning to do, grasshopper. A true
master would never admit to not having read the documentation. The goal
of verbal tap-dancing is to hide the laziness, ignorance, and
incompetence, remember. A true master, when faced with documentation
outright contradicting xyr dunderheaded errors of fact, would
immediately try to re-define what "common and accepted terminology" means.
Etienne Rouette
2010-03-21 18:58:00 UTC
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Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
You're nowhere near as good at this as a true verbal tap-dancing master
would be. You still have some learning to do, grasshopper.
Tap-dancer? Grasshopper? I hardly knew'er!
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
A true master would never admit to not having read the documentation.
The goal of verbal tap-dancing is to hide the laziness, ignorance, and
incompetence, remember. A true master, when faced with documentation
outright contradicting xyr dunderheaded errors of fact, would immediately
try to re-define what "common and accepted terminology" means.
I don't really like reading documentation. I prefer to trust my instincts
and ask the experts. My instincts (as a native speaker) are usually spot on
anyways. In any case, it doesn't really matter since I know what I know. And
I don't really need to know what I don't know, since if I had needed it, I'd
already have learned it.

(trimmed sci.lang from the froups and put
microsoft.public.win32.programmer.ui back in, as I think they're more likely
to be experts on this particular subject)

Etienne
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-21 02:16:33 UTC
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Post by Jared
The cursor is traditionally the text entry point, pre-GUI, so it's
better to leave the terminology alone and refer to the mouse
"pointer". This is, or was, the terminology on the Mac, I believe.
It's the terminology on Presentation Manager, too. But, as I explained,
it's not the terminology on Microsoft Windows. The Windows terminology
is, fairly famously, not the same. Charles Petzold made a point of
Post by Jared
You may know this as a "cursor", but you'll have to get out of that
habit when programming for Windows. In Windows, it's called the
"caret". The word "cursor" is used for the bitmap image that
represents the mouse position.
He made the same point in reverse in Programming the OS/2 Presentation
Post by Jared
The Presentation Manager cursor is a small blinking box or line
generally indicating an entry point for keyboard input. In Windows
this is called the "caret". There are no carets in the
Presentation Manager. You point with the mouse and curse with the
keyboard.
Mike Barnes
2010-03-21 11:11:38 UTC
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Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by Jared
The cursor is traditionally the text entry point, pre-GUI, so it's
better to leave the terminology alone and refer to the mouse
"pointer". This is, or was, the terminology on the Mac, I believe.
It's the terminology on Presentation Manager, too. But, as I
explained, it's not the terminology on Microsoft Windows. The Windows
terminology is, fairly famously, not the same. Charles Petzold made a
point of explaining the difference in Programming Windows. To quote
Post by Jared
You may know this as a "cursor", but you'll have to get out of that
habit when programming for Windows. In Windows, it's called the
"caret". The word "cursor" is used for the bitmap image that
represents the mouse position.
The key word there is "programming". He's talking about the differences
between Microsoft Developer world and the outside world. Microsoft uses
different language for developers and civilians.

For instance, on this XP system I just went to Control Panel and what
did I find?

"Keyboard": 1 cursor, 0 carets
"Mouse": 8 pointers, 0 cursors

I'd get a completely different result if I looked at material aimed at
developers.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-21 18:32:24 UTC
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Post by Jared
The cursor is traditionally the text entry point, pre-GUI, so it's
better to leave the terminology alone and refer to the mouse
"pointer". This is, or was, the terminology on the Mac, I believe.
It's the terminology on Presentation Manager, too. But, as I
explained, it's not the terminology on Microsoft Windows. The Windows
terminology is, fairly famously, not the same. Charles Petzold made a
point of explaining the difference in Programming Windows. To quote
Post by Jared
You may know this as a "cursor", but you'll have to get out of that
habit when programming for Windows. In Windows, it's called the
"caret". The word "cursor" is used for the bitmap image that
represents the mouse position.
The key word there is "programming". [...]
No, it isn't. You are inferring an incorrect dichotomy. Remember your
history. This subject came up before in this thread, when Peter T.
Daniels tried to weasel out of his error of saying that NUAs that moved
read Usenet messages into the Trash folder were like Netscape, by then
making the further error of saying that everyone has a Trash folder on
their desktops.

Microsoft and Apple Computer Incorporated had a major legal battle,
lasting four years, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, that really did
get down to the minuscule details of what the names of individual GUI
elements were. Microsoft didn't intentionally use different names in
Microsoft Windows to the Apple terminology of the time for the fairly
pointless reason of giving different vocabularies to developers and
users. It did it to avoid claims of copyright infringement by Apple.

And this most definitely was intentional. In Microsoft DOS, the
blinking rectangle associated with keyboard input was the "cursor". It
had to be pointed out time and again in the early years of Microsoft
Windows that it had new terminology, and the "cursor" was now the
"caret", with the sprite associated with mouse input now being the
"cursor". As I said twice before, this is a fairly famous difference in
terminology. It was covered in magazine articles, on-line discussion
fora, and (as previously alluded to) books by the likes of Charles Petzold.

The fact that pretty much everyone else has "pointer" for the mouse
sprite and "cursor" for the blinking rectangle has caused this
terminological difference to be eroded, over the years, even within
Microsoft itself. But that doesn't change the fact that there was, and
still is, a difference in what the terminology is on Microsoft Windows
with respect to other companies' GUIs, that was intentional on the part
of Microsoft.

And here lies irony. Because whilst Microsoft Windows terminology has
been eroded from the pressure of the rest of the world agreeing that the
name for the mouse sprite is "pointer", the Windows terminology has in
turn been spread to the rest of the world outside of Microsoft Windows.
See Wikipedia, for example, where there is no article on "pointers" in
computer GUIs, but instead the article about this subject is entitled
"cursor (computers)". The Microsoft Windows terminology has become so
widespread that most of the people who wrote that part of Wikipedia
clearly thought that "cursor" (not "pointer") is the general name, for
all computer GUIs, not just for Microsoft Windows. This was even
despite the fact that there is no "C" in "WIMP". (-:
David DeLaney
2010-03-22 01:52:18 UTC
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Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
The key word there is "programming". [...]
No, it isn't. You are inferring an incorrect dichotomy.
Actually, I think he's trying to imply one.
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Remember your history.
We know what happens to those who don't, right?

Dave "They have to watch the HITLER CHANNEL!" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Glenn Knickerbocker
2010-03-22 02:54:46 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
No, it isn't. You are inferring an incorrect dichotomy.
Actually, I think he's trying to imply one.
Speaking of incorrect dichotomies . . .

"It's not the size of the boat, it's Matt McIrvin" -- Joe
¬R / http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/ny2001.html / Manfre
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-22 05:36:52 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
The key word there is "programming". [...]
No, it isn't. You are inferring an incorrect dichotomy.
Actually, I think he's trying to imply one.
No, xe stated it outright. (-: Xe inferred it from the titles and
presumed target readerships of the books that I quoted. Those two were
(and are) far from the only books discussing this, though.
jmfbahciv
2010-03-22 12:57:50 UTC
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Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by David DeLaney
The key word there is "programming". [...]
No, it isn't. You are inferring an incorrect dichotomy.
Actually, I think he's trying to imply one.
No, xe stated it outright. (-: Xe inferred it from the titles and
presumed target readerships of the books that I quoted. Those two were
(and are) far from the only books discussing this, though.
Who the fuck are you talking to?

/BAH
Walter Bushell
2010-03-22 17:17:29 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
The key word there is "programming". [...]
No, it isn't. You are inferring an incorrect dichotomy.
Actually, I think he's trying to imply one.
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Remember your history.
We know what happens to those who don't, right?
Dave "They have to watch the HITLER CHANNEL!" DeLaney
The are forced to retake History in Summer School.
--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.
Shelly
2010-03-20 17:18:41 UTC
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Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell
you that it's a cursor.
Windows itself refers to it as a pointer, and it ought to know.
--
Shelly
http://cat-sidh.net/blog
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
2010-03-21 02:24:06 UTC
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Post by Shelly
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell you
that it's a cursor.
Windows itself refers to it as a pointer, and it ought to know.
Wrong. I just gave you the names of some of the Win32 API functions
where "Windows itself" refers to it as a cursor. As I also said, the
MSDN Library documentation for the Windows User Interface is
particularly clear on this, with sections for cursors and sections for
carets, which it provides fairly clear definitions for in its section
Post by Shelly
Carets
This section discusses carets which are blinking lines, blocks, or
bitmaps in the client area of a window.
Cursors
This section discusses cursors which are small pictures whose location
on the screen is controlled by a pointing device, such as a mouse,
pen, or trackball.
As I said before, if you take the advice that you were giving, and go
and read the actual manuals (of which the MSDN Library Windows UI
documentation is one such), you'll find that the manuals are pretty
clear on the terminology (which is, as mentioned elsewhere, famously
different to that of Presentation Manager and other GUI systems), and
that what you were talking about is a cursor.
Jared
2010-03-21 03:47:59 UTC
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On Mar 20, 10:24 pm, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-
Post by Shelly
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell you
that it's a cursor.
Windows itself refers to it as a pointer, and it ought to know.
Wrong.  I just gave you the names of some of the Win32 API functions
where "Windows itself" refers to it as a cursor.
Why do the Windows API function names have any relevance to what's
proper usage when talking about the Windows interface? The manuals and
other documentation which are written by people who've thought about
correct and coherent terminology should take precedence. Are we all
going to spell referrer with one 'r' now because of the HTTP header
being like that? Programmers do not necessarily speak the same
language as designers, documentation writers, or the general public.

Calling the mouse "cursor" a pointer is something that's been done
deliberately for at least 20 years, by writers of manuals for more
than one OS platform, and it's correct.

Or are we telling Peter T. Daniels how to program in Windows?
Tak To
2010-03-21 06:16:43 UTC
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On Mar 20, 10:24 pm, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by Shelly
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell you
that it's a cursor.
Windows itself refers to it as a pointer, and it ought to know.
Wrong. I just gave you the names of some of the Win32 API functions
where "Windows itself" refers to it as a cursor.
Why do the Windows API function names have any relevance to what's
proper usage when talking about the Windows interface? The manuals and
other documentation which are written by people who've thought about
correct and coherent terminology should take precedence. Are we all
going to spell referrer with one 'r' now because of the HTTP header
being like that? Programmers do not necessarily speak the same
language as designers, documentation writers, or the general public.
Calling the mouse "cursor" a pointer is something that's been done
deliberately for at least 20 years, by writers of manuals for more
than one OS platform, and it's correct.
What does "correct" mean here?

Before this discussion I hardly notice the difference. What does
it matter if one "logs in" or "logs on"?

Years ago a lot of publications refused to use "byte" and
used "character" instead -- thus something like "the disk can
hold 10 million _characters_ of information". I think using
"pointer" instead of "cursor" is a similar kind of folly.

In any case, who gives a damn?

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Ruud Harmsen
2010-03-21 07:26:01 UTC
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Sun, 21 Mar 2010 02:24:06 +0000: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by Shelly
Windows itself refers to it as a pointer, and it ought to know.
Wrong. I just gave you the names of some of the Win32 API functions
where "Windows itself" refers to it as a cursor. As I also said, the
MSDN Library documentation for the Windows User Interface is
particularly clear on this, with sections for cursors and sections for
carets, which it provides fairly clear definitions for in its section
The Win32 is in C, and documented using its terminology. A pointer in
C is something very very different from a cursor. So using pointer for
that would be extremely confusing.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Jared
2010-03-21 07:51:27 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 21 Mar 2010 02:24:06 +0000: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Post by Shelly
Windows itself refers to it as a pointer, and it ought to know.
Wrong.  I just gave you the names of some of the Win32 API functions
where "Windows itself" refers to it as a cursor.  As I also said, the
MSDN Library documentation for the Windows User Interface is
particularly clear on this, with sections for cursors and sections for
carets, which it provides fairly clear definitions for in its section
The Win32 is in C, and documented using its terminology. A pointer in
C is something very very different from a cursor. So using pointer for
that would be extremely confusing.
A cursor in PL/SQL is something else again.
Mark Edwards
2010-03-21 10:56:42 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
The Win32 is in C, and documented using its terminology. A pointer in
C is something very very different from a cursor. So using pointer for
that would be extremely confusing.
So dereference that use in favor of 'cursor'.


Mark Edwards
--
Proof of Sanity Forged Upon Request
Drew
2010-03-22 19:53:58 UTC
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Go to Start - Help and Support and type in change cursor in the search box.
The terminology is confusing (at best) there. The Suggested Topics refer to
changing your mouse "pointer" or the size of your command window "cursor".
If you look in the Help Topics there is a result called "Mouse overview"
that when clicked refers to the positioning the "cursor" in documents to
drag items. There are no topics displayed if you simply search for caret.

My 2c,
Drew
Post by Shelly
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell you that
it's a cursor.
Windows itself refers to it as a pointer, and it ought to know.
Wrong. I just gave you the names of some of the Win32 API functions where
"Windows itself" refers to it as a cursor. As I also said, the MSDN
Library documentation for the Windows User Interface is particularly clear
on this, with sections for cursors and sections for carets, which it
Post by Shelly
Carets
This section discusses carets which are blinking lines, blocks, or
bitmaps in the client area of a window.
Cursors
This section discusses cursors which are small pictures whose location on
the screen is controlled by a pointing device, such as a mouse, pen, or
trackball.
As I said before, if you take the advice that you were giving, and go and
read the actual manuals (of which the MSDN Library Windows UI
documentation is one such), you'll find that the manuals are pretty clear
on the terminology (which is, as mentioned elsewhere, famously different
to that of Presentation Manager and other GUI systems), and that what you
were talking about is a cursor.
Drew
2010-03-22 19:56:34 UTC
Permalink
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Actually, I'm wrong about caret. It explains caret as being the ^ symbol in
a command window.

Drew
Post by Shelly
Post by Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
Ahem! Take your own advice. The manual, you'll find, will tell you that
it's a cursor.
Windows itself refers to it as a pointer, and it ought to know.
Wrong. I just gave you the names of some of the Win32 API functions where
"Windows itself" refers to it as a cursor. As I also said, the MSDN
Library documentation for the Windows User Interface is particularly clear
on this, with sections for cursors and sections for carets, which it
Post by Shelly
Carets
This section discusses carets which are blinking lines, blocks, or
bitmaps in the client area of a window.
Cursors
This section discusses cursors which are small pictures whose location on
the screen is controlled by a pointing device, such as a mouse, pen, or
trackball.
As I said before, if you take the advice that you were giving, and go and
read the actual manuals (of which the MSDN Library Windows UI
documentation is one such), you'll find that the manuals are pretty clear
on the terminology (which is, as mentioned elsewhere, famously different
to that of Presentation Manager and other GUI systems), and that what you
were talking about is a cursor.
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